Power of the Parent 6: S5 Ep6: Single, Solo and Co-parenting Special

In this episode of the podcast we’re doing things a bit differently!Today I’m talking to a few different people about their experiences of being a part of the workplace whilst navigating the family set up of being a single, solo or co-parent.

There are so many versions of parenthood that are not talked about in the workplace, and whilst we want to honour people’s boundaries, it’s also incredibly important that we pass the mic to those that do want to share.

You’ll hear from:
Rachel* – a co-parent who is in the early days of living separately from the father of her little boy and figuring out her new routines, rediscovering what she needs and re-establishing boundaries. We covered a lot about the assumptions she’s held for herself and some of the practical things we could do to support each other at work.

Elizabeth – a disabled solo parent to her little boy who generously shared her experiences and conversations about how she’s navigated the workplace when met with limiting narratives and beliefs. We called out a myriad of behaviours and Elizabeth gave some really helpful practical advice for both parents and line managers.

Ash – a dad who is co-parenting his little boy, who was incredibly honest about the rollercoaster he’s been on, how his current relationship with his son’s mum is picked over (because they’re on brilliant terms and are maintaining a friendship), the feelings of embarrassment and how there was nothing that could prepare him for having to share his news in the workplace.

There are no links for this one, so all that’s left for me to say is thank you for listening or reading along this series. I hope the stories you’ve been introduced to have brought everything from reassurance to fresh thinking!

Episode Transcript

Charlotte Speak 00:00

Hello and welcome to Power of the Parent, The Podcast. I’m your host Charlotte Speak. I’m a level seven CMI accredited coach, a Strengthscope Master Practitioner, Mental Health First Aider and talent consultant. And I’m also the face behind Power of the Parent.

Charlotte Speak 00:23

In this podcast, I’ll be speaking to parents in the workplace. Some of them are in traditionally employed roles, others are running their own businesses. And we’re having conversations about life in general, insights about being a parent and having a career and exploring the strengths that parenting has awoken for people. We will talk about things like the value that they’re bringing to the workplace, as well as my guests very generously sharing their personal stories and anecdotes about everything life can throw at us.

Charlotte Speak 00:58

Hello, and welcome to this slightly different episode of Power of the Parent Podcast. Today we’re focusing on solo, single and co-parenting with a focus on workplace conversations, boundaries, new routines, and so much more. And you’re going to hear me talking to three different people. They’ve all got their own conversation, so don’t worry, you don’t need to keep track of who’s saying what and when.

Charlotte Speak 01:21

And up first, I am joined by Rachel, she is recently co parenting with her previous partner. We talk about her experiences over the risks of overworking when her child has been with his dad. We also talk about some of the phrases and words that have really helped while she’s been having some of these conversations in the workplace so she doesn’t feel like she’s having to repeat herself. And we also touched on the impact of loneliness.

Charlotte Speak 01:49

I wanted to let you know that there was a slight problem on the line with Rachel so her audio is a bit crackly. I hope it doesn’t detract from the incredible information she shared with us so please do stick with it.

Charlotte Speak 02:08

So thank you for joining me, Rachel. We’ve talked before we’ve pressed record on here about some of the things that in these early days and weeks have kind of come up for you, particularly some of the things that you perhaps thought or have been in your head and actually the reality hasn’t quite matched up for you. Is that something you can just give us a little bit of insight into?

Rachel 02:29

Yeah, of course, and thanks for having me, Char. Like you say, it’s been quite recent for me that I’ve become a co-parent. And I remember the first week where we were living in separate households and we were all transitioning to these new arrangements that we’d put in place and put in the diary, I had a client meeting in London. And that was about a four hour round trip for me. But obviously, it was important for my role and for the business for me to be there so planned to be there. My boss then put in a diary invite, kind of last minute, maybe the afternoon before we were due to travel, to follow the client meeting in London. And I had to ring him and I had to say, I’m really sorry, I can’t stay after the client meeting, I’ve already booked my train back and it’s it’s my night with my little boy so I need to be home. I won’t have had him for two nights so it’s really important to me that I get back to have him. In that moment, I felt that the response was that he was really disappointed in me, that I’d let him down. And I felt like there was a tone of voice change. And it really bothered me, because my boss is actually somebody who’s been in a similar situation himself. And we’ve talked about that a lot. And he’s actually been a really great support for me. So I went away that night and I tend to beat myself up anyway. But I was reflecting on it. And then I was really thinking like is that actually what he was thinking? Or is maybe some of his disappointment was he actually wanted me to be part of that meeting to contribute? And it wasn’t about the fact that I needed to get back for my childhood, it was just Oh, actually, I really wanted you to be part of that conversation. So then I was thinking, Well, why have I taken it as something different, and I did a bit of self reflection and was like, I think it’s because I have this internal fear that people will see me as not committed to my role or not as able to kind of perform my job. And that I can’t do my job. I can’t be in all places at all times now. And so I have put kind of this expectation on myself that I have now got a barrier which I can’t overcome. And I’ve portrayed that on him, which is probably really not fair to him. And as the day came, he was absolutely fine with me going so I know there was nothing there. But I’d had that limited belief in myself that because I am now a co-parent, I am going to be seen differently. I feel like I’m not going to be able to do my job properly, which isn’t the case at all. Does that make sense?

Charlotte Speak 04:45

It does. It aligns with something… I was interviewing somebody on a panel in September 2023 who was a co-parent and I say co-parent because she had an ex partner who was there as well, but actually for her, she didn’t really care what she was called: single, solo, co-parent. And that was actually one of the angles of the conversation how language matters that she doesn’t mind what people call her. But actually, for lots of people, that is really important to understand people’s preferences. And she was saying one of the assumptions that she had really had to overcome was that she was now time poor. So people really kind of almost did the sympathetic head tilt that is not helpful at all about how much time she had. And she said, Actually, my daughter is with her dad, whatever their pattern is together. On those days, when she is with him, I choose to spend my time focusing on work, like that is a coping mechanism for me. It’s something that isn’t causing me problems. It’s not treading on boundaries, all those sorts of things. And when I am with her, I have a hard finish at whatever time it was. And I won’t be contactable, because for me, it’s about quality, not quantity, and that kind of thing. So it sounds like something similar for you. But perhaps that perception of being time poor was perhaps stemming from you initially, but then it doesn’t take much does it, if you’ve got that thought and that belief in your head, and we all have that sometimes until we’re in those positions ourselves, we don’t know what our reality is. Then when you’re actually in it, it’s not quite what I expected it to be. This isn’t what I thought it was. That makes perfect sense. Something just on that, though, is childcare. And some of the assumptions that we make for parents who are co-parenting or single parents or solo parents. And that is around not being too like we don’t want to be really intrusive on people’s rhythms and routines. But is there anything in particular that you are finding helpful, so that you don’t feel like you’re having to constantly remind people or that you don’t feel like you have to go into loads of detail and have that repetition? Is there anything… either kind of words or phrases or questions that you found to be helpful that you’re making use of at the minute?

Rachel 07:00

Yeah, definitely. Because sometimes you can feel really embarrassed. It feels like you’re giving an excuse that you need to be with your child. But sometimes like, Oh, can we put this in the diary for X day? You feel like, oh, no, sorry, I’ve got my child. Well, I’m not sorry I’ve got my child, I’m really delighted that I’ve got that time with him, actually. And it’s the highlight of my my day when I do have him. So I actually am luck. I worked with some other people who were in a similar situation. And we really have that mutual understanding of the fact that although we don’t and wouldn’t expect anybody else to understand our full childcare arrangement on a weekly basis, we know that that is in place. So when we start planning meetings together, we’ll literally open the conversation with, Oh I can’t remember if it’s that night that you’ve got the boys or I can’t remember if this is your week with the boys, does that mean early starts are better or late finishes are better for you? That makes you feel that you’ve got permission almost then to plan around your childcare. Having somebody else when they’re planning something with you open the conversation around what works for you and your arrangements can make a real difference in the freedom you feel you’ve got to actually plan work around your your life schedule.

Charlotte Speak 08:07

That all sounds really practical and logical. And like you’re not making somebody, almost, you know, have to put those… I hate using the word excuses, because ultimately, it’s children and childcare and it’s not an excuse is it… but explanations. The pressure isn’t there to say that and it’s really simple. And actually, in my line of work, a lot of the conversations that you end up having, it can sometimes boil down to people thinking I’ve got to give people special treatment, or I’ve got to learn a whole different way of line managing because I’ve got all these people in different situations. And actually you haven’t because if you’re planning a meeting, for example, like you’ve just given that example if you’re chatting with a colleague and thinking right when can we talk about this? Why wouldn’t you say to them is first thing in the morning gonna be better? Or are you gonna need to be on pickup. You don’t have to have children to have your diary need to be considered, do you as well? I t’s an everybody thing. It’s not just for one group of people.

Rachel 09:03

It can be be applied to anybody couldn’t it. You could be a carer, you could just have a hobby, or just use that time for you and you’ve got a preference.

Charlotte Speak 09:10

One of the things that I want to kind of wrap up with talking to you about is the personal side of things for you. So particularly the times when you haven’t got your little boy at home, we have touched on before, not whilst recording, but some of the loneliness side of things and managing your boundaries because one of your coping mechanisms has been to work for example. And lots of people share that with me. Some people do it and they’ll say it’s what that is what I want to do. That’s where I feel comforted. That’s something that is important to me. For other people, they absolutely don’t want to do that. So this isn’t about a right or wrong situation because everybody’s going to be unique with it. But when it has come to… I know that you’re kind of three or four weeks into this, but what are you learning about yourself in terms of what you need? What you need to support yourself? And how is that playing out for you right now?

Rachel 10:05

I think like you say it’s very early days, so I’m still testing with different things to work out what’s best for me. I certainly found those first few nights on my own, going past an empty bedroom really, really, really hard. Work is just so busy, it is an easy place to just go to. And that also means that I can do those harder stops when I have got my little boy with me. But then I was finding I was sometimes if it was, because I worked from home a lot as well, I could be logged on from half seven in the morning till 10 o’clock at night on calls, in PowerPoint. I realised that for me, that’s just not okay either. I need some kind of a break. I don’t sleep well, if I’ve been doing that. And then that has a knock on impact throughout the week so loneliness probably led me to work. But what I’ve already decided and started to do is ensure that every night when I am on my own, I do one thing for me. And that could be sitting in the bath with a glass of wine, it could be reading my book for half an hour, it could be going on the peloton, it could be going for dinner with a friend, last night I have my nails done. It’s just something for me that breaks up the loneliness in an evening and I have got an amazing new partner. But our lifestyles just don’t mean that we always get that time together as well. So it really is adapting to everything that comes so differently all at once. But doing one thing for me is certainly a starting point.

Charlotte Speak 11:19

We have talked about that feeling of loneliness and the reality of loneliness for a long time now, particularly, you know, pandemic wise. This is different in a lot of ways, because it’s the long term reality for somebody. And in those moments of like, I don’t want to find the crutch that doesn’t work for me and just think I naturally will fall into I’m just going to work on those evenings. Because if that isn’t the right thing for you, again, it goes back to those assumptions, doesn’t it? Yeah, I’m just to see, or I’m expecting myself to be able to do that, so that I’ve got the quality time with my little boy, when he’s here and that kind of thing. So it sounds to me like it’s about finding your own narrative, finding your own story, what works for you in this new blended family unit. And that might change week to week. I would hope that at some point that it doesn’t have to change week to week. But right now when you’re in that thick of it, you are still finding your feet. You’ve never had to go through this before, you don’t know some of these answers, and you don’t want that additional pressure of I’ve got to find my own magic wand here and be like, right, this is what we do and this is how we do it. You’ve got things to test out, haven’t you?

Rachel 12:28

Yeah, you’re totally right. And I think it’s giving yourself permission to try those different things. Just accepting that each week is going to be a bit of a roller coaster until you work that out. Sometimes you might choose to work, sometimes you might choose you don’t want to work, that’s absolutely fine.

Charlotte Speak 12:40

It sounding like, or what I’m taking away from this is, absolutely we need to be burning any books that say there are rules to follow. Every situation is going to be unique and and different, therefore will play out differently for you in the workplace. And that it’s okay to have those feelings that you perhaps you’ve gone into this situation with your own perceptions, but you will wake up to some of those things that actually aren’t 100% true for you. And actually, the last thing you want to do is berate yourself for it. But it’s about looking at right I am going to learn some new things here about me, I am going to learn some new things about the narratives and perceptions of people who are single or solo or co-parents. And that’s okay. And once I know better, I will do better for myself. I’m not going to keep giving myself that hard time. You’ll probably do better for other people as well.

Rachel 13:28

Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And you’ll probably find that you do better not even just for yourself, but for other people around you as well. Since feeling lonely on those work from home days myself where I’m then on my own in the evening, it’s changed how I manage some people in my team even so I have got some people, some direct reports who are single individuals, they don’t have children at home anymore, and it is just them in their households. And my loneliness has prompted me to think during the day, if I know they’re kind of drowning in a PowerPoint presentation or in a specific project, and they probably haven’t got that interaction throughout the day to just pop in a call just to say how you doing, fancy having lunch over teams together and just to break their day out with some social interaction because that means a lot to me as well. And so we can all help each other out.

Charlotte Speak 14:15

I hope that the coming weeks and months go as smoothly for you as possible and that you all figure out what your rhythms and routines are. I am in awe of how you have handled it. You’ve got one very lucky little boy. So thank you so much for sharing a snippet and an insight into how you’re finding your feet. Thank you so much. I know that there will be some real practical things that people are able to take away there.

Charlotte Speak 14:46

Next up, I am talking to Elizabeth a disabled solo parent to her eight year old little boy. We talked about her experience of availability being a currency in the workplace and actually for lots of people, some of the assumptions that she’s faced and how she’s moved through them, and the power of a curious conversation.

Charlotte Speak 15:11

When I asked on social media, if people would like to come and share their stories or experiences, Elizabeth came back to me. And I’m so thrilled and very honoured that you have given me some time. So thank you so much, Elizabeth, when we talked prior to hitting the record button, one of the things that is very close to your heart and close to mind, but for different reasons, is the assumption around ambition, and things like contactability and availability, when you are a solo parent. Can we dive into your story a little bit, and perhaps some of your experiences that you would want to share?

Elizabeth 15:48

I think it’s really important for people who are who are ready to listen to stories is to really unpack a lot of the assumptions that we have about work and what good work looks and feels like. And one of the assumptions that I found in the charity sector where I am now, but also academia where I was before, and in the corporate world where I was before that, is that there’s something about being a good employee, which equates to being able to be contacted at any time, being able to drop everything, and dash to an office or conference, if you’re in an international firm, another country. And it’s so unquestioned that like availability is a core important part of what it means to be a good employee, that people then think if you’re not eternally available, if you’re not always there at the end of the phone, if you’re not always responding to your emails, or heaven forbid, you’re not able to be in a particular location at a particular time at the drop of a hat, then that reflects on a lack of willingness, or a lack of skill, or a lack of ambition of that person. Because surely, if you were super ambitious in your company in your career, then you would just drop everything and make a mad dash for whatever it is, that’s been set out for you. And of course, as soon as I say that, everyone’s like shaking their head, a frown on that, of course, that’s not the case. Of course, it’s not your ability to pick up an email at 8pm, which determines whether or not you’re delivering great work. But it’s that assumption. And it’s so closely entwined into what we think a good employee is, that then has really serious implications for solo parents like myself, but also anyone and everyone who’s got responsibilities or a life outside of their work. And that I think, is a real barrier to getting ahead in the workplace. And I think if we could just understand and unpack some of these assumptions a bit more then we really would open up the workplace and start to remove the barriers for solo parents, but also for other people who face barriers.

Charlotte Speak 17:53

Absolutely, we need to get you some sort of giant microphone and a really massive box to stand on somewhere that, like we need to put you in the middle of I don’t know where, Trafalgar Square, and just even playing that on repeat, because this is the challenge for most people in the workplace. It’s going to hit differently for you or for other people who are solo parents, but it’s that currency of, I suppose it’s presenteeism in some respects. I remember returning to work after having had my eldest, and I wasn’t a solo parent, but I was thrown the assumption that I wouldn’t want to travel. And I didn’t work in a role that had lots and lots of travel. But every now and again, there would be reason to not be in a Leeds postcode. And I remember somebody saying to me, Oh, you’re not going to want to cover that, are you? Because you’re going to need to travel? I don’t remember what I said back, but I do remember being quite shocked and a little bit like nervous really to reply. I think I did say something like, I actually probably could do that one. I remember writing a whole blog post about it years later saying like, leave the logistics to me. Because who are you, the person on the other end of this conversation, to tell me that I can’t travel or that you think I don’t want to travel? Because there was no question there. There was no curiosity of what is your support setup? And could you? And do you want to? And actually, on the other side of that, why are we assuming that people who don’t have children want to be travelling the length and breadth of the country or the circumference of the globe, because actually, for other reasons people may not want to travel. It just so happens for parents, of course, there are caring responsibilities. So that really resonates a lot. And I think it will resonate with a lot of people listening. In those moments where you are faced with those assumptions, I suppose probably some unhelpful comments along the way, is there anything that you found particularly helpful to support yourself in being able to either respond to those assumptions or to help yourself move through them?

Elizabeth 19:55

Yeah, I mean, in terms of unhelpful, it was actually a real moment of clarity for me, in leaving my aspirations as an academic, when we were having this kind of series of emails and conversations about the importance of attending a particular seminar series, and it was in the evening. So I had a really friendly conversation with the convener of this seminar series who was a parent, and I would regularly see them at the university creche gates. So this is not a person who was unaware of the fact of when the creche closed. So not a person who was unaware of the pressures of parenthood. But they continued to be very strident in the idea that no, it was very important. Part of being a good member of the department was to go to the seminar series, and they were not open to moving it to lunchtime, like many of the other departments did, because that wouldn’t be as easy for some of the speakers. No data, no way of verifying that. Just that was that person’s assumption. And I had a conversation that was really friendly. And then the follow up email really wasn’t. And I thought, is this really a place that I can see myself being for, you know, three years. Being an academic is very intense on your time. Is this really a culture that I can see myself flourishing in? If they can’t even move a seminar series, and they insist on telling me off for not attending? And that that’s coming from a fellow parent. And to me that just said, You know what, this is just not a space where a solo parent of a very young child is going to be welcome. So why would I pour my heart and soul into a role here? Where I’m not welcome. And I think that something that could be, and is where I’m at the moment, is that if you have a norm of genuinely curious conversations with people. So we have this quite, you know, relatively formal quarterly conversation, that is our policy to have a quarterly development conversation. And sometimes that could be you know, more about your day to day, sometimes it’s more about very long term career ambitions. But if in those conversations, it’s the norm to ask, what are you excited about doing this upcoming quarter? Are you worried about anything? Then you can ask people. Are you excited about the idea of travelling? Do you want to speak at conferences? What options are there available? And sometimes the employer can’t put in place things that could be massively helpful to you. It might not be that they can say, Okay, well, we’re going to find some conferences with childcare for you, Elizabeth, you know, that’s not always the answer. But what those curious conversations can uncover is, well, actually, if it’s Tuesday, or Wednesday, my sister can be my childcare, even overnight. And if you’ve got that culture of those conversations, then you can track people’s changing circumstances. Now, that’s very important for me as a disabled solo parent. My health fluctuates a great deal. And that impacts my ability of travelling, and being available, as much as supporting my son does. But also, if you’re a carer for an elderly parent, if you’re someone who’s got a fluctuating health condition, if you’re not regularly having those conversations with your line manager, then you’re both making assumptions about the availability of different options for you. And once you start those curious conversations, you can also get kind of support in finding stretch opportunities that you can be really passionate about. So for example, I’ve had enormous amount of support in finding online conferences, or genuinely hybrid conferences. And for the last two years, my speaking career has flourished, because post COVID, there’s just more online events. So by creating that culture, where it’s normal to talk about not only the barriers you face, but your ambitions and how, what you’re looking for, what you’re hoping for, you can actually get support from the people at work to make those things happen, even if they need to do a bit of adaptation, like, for example, doing a conference online rather than going in person.

Charlotte Speak 23:51

Something that you touched on there, and I don’t know if you realise that you mentioned it, but one of the things that you said was the assumptions that you both might be making. So when you were talking about, you know, the parent, and perhaps a line manager. This has come up this week in a workshop that I was doing about remembering, it wasn’t in the same context, it was to do with support and returning parents, but that we sometimes either forget or genuinely do not feel like we have agency in some of these conversations, and that we forget that actually, nobody’s gonna have our back like we will. It’s easy for me to just say those words. I don’t mean that it is necessarily easy to do that, it can feel a heck of a lot of energy to have to speak up for yourself, and you might be in an environment where that feels wildly miles away from where you currently are. But something that, you know, I definitely want to take into any conversation I have with parents is that you can advocate for yourself, you can speak up, but how you do that, we all need to appreciate is going to look different for each of us. Because for some people if you’ve got a really crappy line manager for example, which let’s be honest, it gets called the line manager lottery for a reason, that that might feel like the most uncomfortable conversation you could possibly have. And if somebody’s listening to this and thinks, you know, the advice is to make sure you talk to your line manager, it isn’t as binary is that is it? But look for where the support is. So if, you know, talking with a friend in the workplace might help in the first instance, finding that support network. Maybe it’s somebody at your line manager’s level that you do have a better relationship with, or a sponsor or a mentor, or somebody that can advocate for you eventually, when you feel like you can, we want to remember that we can speak up for ourselves. But if that feels difficult right now what are the other opportunities? What are the other routes to being able to have that voice shared for us?

Elizabeth 25:48

Such an important concept of thinking where your support can come from. I think, there’s something that’s really important, that’s kind of underlying what you’ve just said there, which is, you need to know for yourself, what is helpful. And I think, if you’re a new parent, if you’re a first time parent that’s genuinely challenging. You’re navigating this incredible shift in identity. If you’ve never gone back to the workplace, after maternity leave, you might have seen other people do it, but never done it. You’ve no idea where it’s going to look and feel like. I remember having a conversation with my current line manager a few years ago. I started the conversation with an assumption that I would need to support moving into a new role, because I just couldn’t get my head around how I was going to be able to do the school run and carry on working in central London. They very fortunately for me, were also parents, and were able to say, Would you like to try some things before you resign and start applying for other jobs? Because we hadn’t tested, you know, what might it be like to have a day at home? What might it be like to have a short day in the office and then longer days at home to balance that out? If you can give yourself the space, to think about the options and to try things, especially if it’s safe to do to try different options, try different working patterns, and see who is who it is and how it is. So I came to know about about you and this podcast through the Upfront community. And I think that there’s something really important about being able to connect with other people with similar experiences, even if it’s not the same experiences, to get that support to have a practice chance of saying, This is what I’m thinking, how would that go down with you, if you were a line manager, have you had these experiences. If you’re in a very large company, there’s often network groups. And there might be a network group who’s a carers and parents network group or a women’s network group that you might be able to connect to. I think it’s important though, that we remember that, you know, we live in a country where there is still significant discrimination around pregnancy and around parents, particularly parents with very young children. And I know that there’s a lot of the narratives around single parents, single mum, disabled single mums, like, is there any more hated group than the Daily Mail, I mean, thank goodness, I’m white, otherwise, they’d be outside with the placards, and the burning pitchforks. It’s hard to be in that world. Something really practical that I would really recommend is if you have any doubts whatsoever about your line manager is to keep notes. Because then if for any reason, you do need to escalate or you need to talk to your union, you want to bring up something at a tribunal, it’s really important that you don’t put pressure on your memory to remember how you felt in that moment, what they said what you were trying to do, because that then is your own internal support mechanism of making sure that if things do get very bad, then you’ve done your homework really, of knowing that you’ve done what you can to support yourself through what can be a really difficult process.

Charlotte Speak 28:46

That’s a really practical and helpful point, which you just always hope that people aren’t going to need. But I’m sure lots of people will be grateful that you’ve shared it. And those societal narratives that you shared there, and publications such as the Daily Mail, I mean other newspapers are available, but the things that we, you know, we’re going into a workplace trying to do a job, and all the while you’re thinking, right, what is it that I’m up against, and that’s incredibly tough for anybody to understand when they’re not in your shoes and in your experiences. And I think you kind of touched on it before that sometimes line managers, not even just line managers, I feel like I’m kind of throwing them all under the bus. It isn’t just line managers, it’s peers, it’s anybody that you can be in a workplace with, but we can build these assumptions based on what somebody looks like, or a disability that they might have or how they are racialised. We’re kind of looking for things that… let people live, let people have their stories and their experiences, and your experience of being a disabled solo white parent isn’t going to be exactly the same as somebody else who is also a disabled solo white parent, but there will be elements of creating community there weren’t there? And needing to hear and share your story, if you feel up to it, and you touched on parent and carer support networks, I think they’re incredibly important. And I know so many organisations that have got some fabulous ones. I do also know that there are lots of organisations that will have maternity ones. And, you know, there are many routes to parenthood, maternity is one of them. It’s not the only version. And we’ve got to be careful, I think with some of those networks, that they are set up for what they’re actually meant to be, which is a space of inclusion and equitable conversations. And so just a bit of a, I guess, a nudge for those that are perhaps listening to this and thinking, right, what are some of my so whats? Well, we’ve got loads from a parent perspective from you, which I know people will be incredibly grateful for. And then that, you know, that workplace angle of whether you’re a line manager, or whether you are, I’m going to use the a word, I’m going to use ally, whether you’re a peer supporter, whatever it might be, that we want to create those safe spaces and do it in a meaningful way. Don’t we? This is not a tick box exercise. This is about helping people have a voice.

Elizabeth 31:15

Absolutely. I want to just stick a pin in the idea that this is a joint responsibility. Yes, I want everyone listening to this to go away, and have a lovely cup of coffee and a bit of cake and make a list of things they need for their employer, they know exactly what it is, and they’re gonna go there and really confidently express it, and the employer is gonna be so grateful. So grateful for that precise list. But it’s really a joint responsibility. Yes, the parent can have some ideas, but it can’t be down to that person. You know, we see so much narrative about like superhero mums, in particular, and inspiring disabled people. And the trouble with a lot of those narratives is that it just pushes all of the responsibility onto that person, not only to live their life and have a flourishing career, but also teach all of the people around them how the appropriate way to respond is, what the way is to bring down these barrier. It’s really important to remember that the workplace has a responsibility as well, to yes, be proactively engaging with individual employees, but also to really maintain that curiosity, to be reading the research, t be working on best practice that crosses lots of different organisations, to do what they can to get the structures in place that can bring down the barriers proactively.

Charlotte Speak 32:28

I think that’s an incredibly important point to make. And funnily enough, it won’t be out when this podcast comes, but I have recorded an interview with somebody else today on the day that we’re recording. And she said, the same. Not exactly the same, but not far off about let’s just remember that it is not on the communities that we are trying to support and serve to do the education. And yes, we want to hold the space for story sharing, we want to to learn from people. But that doesn’t mean that that’s where all the work comes from. And actually, if you can’t… you see this on social media so much, the questions and the what about, and the devil’s advocate, and the can I just ask. Some of these questions are not for these people’s comments section. You know, there’s so much learning and so much knowledge out there, you really don’t need to keep going back to those people and go can I just ask something else, can I just? And I kind of get the curiosity, I get the I would really love to know, yeah but, people are exhausted. And if they’ve already poured so much of themselves into something, let’s just go somewhere else. And let’s go and talk about it with somebody who is on the same passion as you and is also learning. Go swap what you’ve learned instead, rather than going back to that person that you’re trying to help. So yes, thank you for flagging that because I think it’s really important.

Charlotte Speak 33:58

Finally, I am chatting to Ash, who is a dad co-parenting with his ex wife. Ash generously shared his feelings of embarrassment and the stigma of talking about his new family setup, as well as what’s been really helpful in the workplace.

Charlotte Speak 34:17

I am now talking to Ash who is very recently in the world of co-parenting, and we’re going to be chatting a little bit about how he’s been navigating these early days and weeks, and in particular, some of the workplace side of things as well. So thank you so much for joining me Ash.

Charlotte Speak 34:33

So as I just mentioned there, you are in the early days of co-parenting, like in the grand scheme of things, we’re talking weeks and months as opposed to years, aren’t we? Because this is a podcast all about supporting parents in the workplace. So has anything started to crop up from a work perspective that’s either been helpful or that you’ve found tricky to navigate?

Ash 34:54

Yeah, I think the main one really is… well there’s two sides. There’s time. In my work, I have a lot of early calls, of calls that sort of 7 o’clock, 8 o’clock with other parts of the world, and they are quite regular. So one of the things is obviously juggling that. And having that relationship with the child’s mum and making sure that we’re aligned and that we communicate well, takes a lot more planning. Because you kind of take that for granted when you’re together, you can just talk about that and just say I’ve got an early call tomorrow, can you do the nursery run, for example. We have to be a little, or I, certainly have to be a little bit more forward thinking in making sure that we plan ahead because, you know, we both do have jobs that we have to travel for, or we have to be away for or have early calls for. So we need to just both work together on that stuff. I think that’s really important in terms of that communication and that planning. That’s something that probably, I took for granted a little bit before, but now I really have to plan ahead for that, and make sure that our child is covered, basically, because he is a priority. But then on the other side of things, you know, the workplace has been really helpful and accommodating in the situation that I’m in. I’ve been up front with sort of line managers and things like that. And they’ve actually been really accommodating on that. And understanding, because it is a challenging time. You know, it’s an emotional time, it’s a tiring time, you’re getting used to new sort of processes and procedures and routines if you like which, which takes some getting used to and you realise that you don’t have that other pair of hands there helping you out with little things, you know, you’ve got to do everything, which you know, you don’t complain at having time with your child, absolutely not, but it is a tiring and stressful time at times. You know, just this morning, I had a call at eight o’clock, and I was getting into nursery and all of a sudden, you know, he needed the toilet, just as we’re about to walk out the door. So that puts me sort of 10 minutes late. So all of a sudden, I’m rushing around to get you know, join the call in the car. But yeah, certainly challenging, certainly different, takes a lot of getting used to, I’d say, I’m still certainly finding my feet now, as well. But it’s really important that the workplace are accommodating and understanding of these kinds of changes, because I think I’ve been lucky in that aspect, as my workplace has been really accommodating. Not just my line manager, but also others have been really accommodating in terms of, you know, what my plans might be, and, you know, do I need, you know, I might need to go home for a certain time, I might need to go home early, come in late, they’ve been really, really accommodating on that kind of thing. So that’s really been helpful,

Charlotte Speak 37:34

I’m guessing that a lot of that compassion and a lot of that support, it’s not written down in a policy anywhere, is it? That’s a human to human thing.

Ash 37:44

It is. And I think it would probably, you know, even in my workplace, it would probably vary from person to person, what kind of experience they have with that. You know, I’ve just been fortunate that my line manager has been really, really accommodating and understanding of my situation, getting used to that new routine if you like, as well, and sort of haven’t been that out, you know, it hasn’t impacted work a little bit as well. I’d probably say I’ve not been as focused at times, you know, there’s been a lot more going on, tired, you know, I’ve been tired, both emotionally and physically. And you know, they’ve really been understanding of that whole thing, really. So you know, I can’t complain, but that like, that’s a person to person thing. Someone even, you know, in my same office might have a different experience with their line manager, because it’s not written down. I’ve just been very fortunate that, you know, they’ve been very understanding of my situation and the effects and impacts that’s had.

Charlotte Speak 38:36

I suppose ultimately, like, there isn’t going to be an ideal because everybody’s going to have different experiences, you know. For you, it’s been a case of getting a new house ready, for example. And that’s not the only thing that’s causing you to be tired and have lots going on. But that from a very practical when when those lives are separated in lots of ways. There’s just a lot for you to juggle isn’t there. But also, from that line manager perspective, it’s awful, really, that we still come down to a line manager lottery, but that’s clearly what you’ve, you know, won. But it is recognised and I think that it’s a finite amount of time, isn’t it, you know, you’re not going to be in this phase forever. And you’re going to want to retain somebody that they want to make sure is feeling good and engaged in the workplace. And right now, what you need is as much support and flexibility as possible, but everybody’s needs are gonna change throughout their lives, aren’t they?

Ash 39:33

Yeah, they are yeah, and everybody’s situation is going to be different. So, you know, someone might end up in a similar situation to me, but their circumstances may be completely different to me. You know, you touched on the house, getting a house ready for us and things like that, you know, that’s took a lot of time when I’ve had to scoot out and meet a builder there or a carpet man there or something like that, you know, there’s been a lot of that. And they’ve just kind of said, Look, you know, you’ve got all this to do, just take it and do what you need to do. Work from home when you used to work from home, pop out when you need to pop out. Because I think they understand that this won’t be, you know, it’s a temporary thing. I wasn’t going to be forever building a house, or at least I hope not. Yeah, they were pretty. They were pretty understanding of that. I think they knew that it’s a temporary thing.

Charlotte Speak 40:17

Can I rewind ever slightly from when you were saying about, you’ve been very open in the workplace, and you’ve let them know, them being a line manager and other people around you, you’ve let them know what was going on. How did you specifically… I’m not suggesting that you dish out advice to everybody… but if I was a parent, listening to this, who’s perhaps going through something similar, and I’m sat there thinking, How do I broach this in the workplace? How do I start that conversation? Was there anything in particular that helped you to do that?

Ash 40:47

No. I’m not sure if anything can. I think it kind of, is probably something that crops up in conversation. Where obviously people were presuming that everything was fine. My circumstance hadn’t changed, still at home, and probably a question around that, or, you know, a subject around that, that put me in a probably a situation where I had to bring it up, or whether it was lunchtime, whether it was just, you know, after meeting, just having a couple of minutes chat with somebody, after we’d finished a call, it kind of came up like that, really. That’s the way it came up with my manager as well, actually, you know, it’s a very, it’s a very difficult subject to approach, certainly to work colleagues who you might not be as personable with as say one of your friends. So that was the way it came up, you know, some it might come up in conversation about, you know, the relationship or the family. And it kind of just led down that path to say, actually, you know, this is the situation at the moment, because it is it’s a really difficult subject to approach really, you almost don’t want people to know what’s going on. But at the same time, certain people need to know. And like, you know, if I had not said anything to my line manager, they might not have been as understanding as they were about, you know, everything that was going on.

Ash 42:02

Thank you for sharing that. Because actually, I think your answer might actually give, hopefully, some reassurance for some people. There is no rulebook, you don’t have to navigate this in a certain way. And if it’s feeling difficult, then that’s understandable. And if it’s something that you’re rushing to talk about, again, that’s understandable. Did you have any sort of assumptions or expectations of yourself as a co-parent? And how has that kind of impacted you so far?

Ash 42:29

I did, and they were probably all negatives, actually. So you know, there’s a bit of a stigma aligned, certainly with sort of men, I think, who are co-parenting, I think, you know, I think there’s a bit of a stigma with that. And I sort of felt a little bit and I felt a little bit when I’ve, you know, been outside with my little boy on my arm. And, you know, people looking at me and saying, Oh, he’s a single dad, you know, who’s got his son for the day, and you know, he’s one day and that kind of thing. It has been tough, I have probably been tough on myself, and that I’d probably been a little bit embarrassed to talk about it as well. And so even when it did sort of crop up in conversation about what might be going on at home, I was embarrassed about talking about that. Because, you know, you almost, it’s not what you plan, you know, it’s not what you plan for your little boy, it’s not what you plan for your family, but these things unfortunately happen. And I’ve probably felt a little bit of embarrassment about that, certainly, when I’ve been out on my own with him, you know, I felt like, you know, as if people are looking and judging me, whereas obviously, they don’t know, you know, the full story and actually, that we have a really good relationship still, me and his Mum, we still talk a lot, we’re still really good friends, we, you know, share him out of pretty much 50/50 and work around each other’s work diaries and things like that, you know. You just feel that people are maybe judging and looking at you or wondering what the circumstances are. And I’ve probably been too hard on myself on that. You know, whereas, like I say, the reality is we get on really well, he and his Mum, I think that’s important for him. And it’s important for him to both have time with his Mum and his Dad. So we’re still both finding our feet in it, obviously. But like I say, we’re still really good friends, you know, we make sure that he spends as much time we both of us as he can. I think one of the things as well, that that has been, you know, when people do separate, I think people find it a struggle that we do get on and we are friends. They don’t really understand that, you know, whether that’s people at work, family, friends, everybody finds it quite difficult that actually we’ve separated but we get on really well. So I’ve had a few questions about that, as if, you know, as if to say, I’m a bit strange by being in that situation. But actually, you know, there is no rulebook on everybody’s situation, when it’s like this, everybody’s going to be different. But for me, you know, because we do get on well still and talk to each other a lot and help each other out, people find that quite odd. So that’s been a bit of a strange sort of backstory to what’s been going on as well.

Charlotte Speak 45:00

Thank you so much for sharing the two things that you shared there really. First of all, the fact that actually, you two are continuing to get on, and you know, being supportive of each other in a variety of different ways. And long may that continue. And also, like some of these decisions don’t come necessarily from a place of not liking each other anymore. It’s about wanting to be happy for each other, isn’t it, and actually you want to be able to say that you both deserve to feel happy and have whatever the future looks like for each of you. Even more powerful than that. And I don’t underestimate how powerful it is to hear somebody say, about that feeling of embarrassment, and to share that with people. So yeah, huge thanks for sharing it, because I hope that that stigma around this conversation. You’re not the first person that I’ve heard to say that, but I also don’t hear it all the time. So I’ve heard it in the context from people of saying, you know, I almost became a bit of a social pariah because you’re almost like the bad omen, I don’t want to talk to them, because they’re getting divorced, or they’re a single parent now, or solo parent or co-parenting. And it’s like, that’s the thing lots of us don’t want to become. So therefore, I don’t almost want to even hear about it. And I’ve just, my heart broke for the person that said that, to me, because I just thought we all deserve to be supported. One person’s situation has absolutely no bearing on somebody else’s. And by not having those conversations, we’re not talking about different versions of parenthood. And we’re assuming that there’s a very limited ways of families being set up. And I know it’s not everybody’s case that on the other side of separation and divorce, that they will have the relationship that you have with your ex, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be talked about, or that we shouldn’t just take a minute to say actually, there is a way to do it. It’s not gonna be right for everybody. And I know that there are a million different reasons why it is not appropriate or it’s not right, or it’s not safe, in some instances for people to have some of those relationships ongoing. But in your specific situation, I think it’s really powerful to hear it. So I hope that that embarrassment and that stigma eases away for you. And you can hear that a lot of that has come from the hard time you’ve given yourself but I hope that it is, you know, as time goes on, I hope it’s something that helps diminish that feeling. Can I ask you one more? Is there any support missing that you’d love to see for others or, for yourself as you move forward? You know, whether that’s a work context or personal life context, whatever direction you want to go in with it.

Ash 47:41

I think people can under underestimate how difficult this situation is, whether it’s work, friends, family, I think they do underestimate. I mean, you know, like I’ve touched on, we support 50/50, we have a lot of time with our child, we also have a lot of time on our own, and we’re very amicable, we communicate well, but it’s still very, very tiring, both physically and emotionally going through something like this. And I think people underestimate that. I suppose if they’ve not been through and they’re not aware of it. Bringing up the child is difficult, it is hard, it is tiring, that’s when you’ve got two pairs of hands doing it when you’ve got one pair of hands, you know, those days can be a real physical and emotional challenge. As well as what you’ve been going through to get to that point as well. So I think, you know, support networks, like your friends, like your family need to be utilised, I think and to speak up if you are struggling, because I think people don’t necessarily understand that. I’ve certainly found that, you know, I found myself going into a little bit of a shell at times, you know, certainly on the days I’ve not got my little boy. I very rarely do anything, been having to sort of force myself to do things and sort of stay social because, you know, I’ve sort of, you know, I found myself just sort of shying away from friends and family and, you know, they’re secure. Certainly friends, you know, they’re all in couples and things like that. And all of a sudden you’re not and you’re there on your own again. You’ve got to sort of understand who you are, again, to a certain certain degree. But yeah, I think you know, what I’ve learned is just speaking up to friends and family and sort of forcing myself to do things because I did sort of feel myself sort of slipping out of, you know, the social scene and just, you know, sitting inside and doing nothing, and I needed to change that. But, again, people don’t understand necessarily if you don’t talk about it. I think that’s one of the things because I don’t think people really fully understand how difficult this situation can be.

Charlotte Speak 49:39

I hope that if anybody’s listening and is either in the same situation or similar, not exactly the same, but in a similar situation that we can use that as a bit of a prompt and a nudge to think. Even if it is just something… grabbing a coffee with somebody for half an hour. It doesn’t have to be really big grand things that you’re doing does it? It could be those smaller things that is about connection. And if anybody is a friend or family member of somebody going through it, then maybe today’s the day to drop a text out and just let somebody know that you’re there if they fancy a chat or something. Something along those lines. So thank you so much for sharing a little bit more about your story Ash, it has been so lovely to chat to you. And I really, really appreciate your time.

Charlotte Speak 50:27

Thanks very much for tuning in to Power of the Parent, the Podcast. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please rate review and subscribe. And if you could tell all your friends about the podcast that would be wonderful. If you’d like to get in touch you can find me on Instagram. Just search Power of the {arent. See you next time.

Charlotte Speak 00:00

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Charlotte Speak 01:49

Charlotte Speak 02:08

Rachel 02:29

Charlotte Speak 04:45

Rachel 07:00

Charlotte Speak 08:07

Rachel 09:03

It can be be applied to anybody couldn’t it. You could be a carer, you could just have a hobby, or just use that time for you and you’ve got a preference.

Charlotte Speak 09:10

Rachel 10:05

Charlotte Speak 11:19

Rachel 12:28

Charlotte Speak 12:40

Rachel 13:28

Charlotte Speak 14:15

Charlotte Speak 14:46

Charlotte Speak 15:11

Elizabeth 15:48

Charlotte Speak 17:53

Elizabeth 19:55

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Elizabeth 25:48

Charlotte Speak 28:46

Elizabeth 31:15

Charlotte Speak 32:28

Charlotte Speak 33:58

Charlotte Speak 34:17

Charlotte Speak 34:33

Ash 34:54

Charlotte Speak 37:34

I’m guessing that a lot of that compassion and a lot of that support, it’s not written down in a policy anywhere, is it? That’s a human to human thing.

Ash 37:44

Charlotte Speak 38:36

Ash 39:33

Charlotte Speak 40:17

Ash 40:47

Ash 42:02

Ash 42:29

Charlotte Speak 45:00

Ash 47:41

Charlotte Speak 49:39

Charlotte Speak 50:27

Power of the Parent 6: S5 Ep6: Single, Solo and Co-parenting Special

Power of the Parent 6: S5 Ep6: Single, Solo and Co-parenting Special

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